As part of the Morning Show's coverage of the 2022 Local Elections, Aaron will be interviewing candidates standing for positions on the Raglan Community Board as well as the Waikato District and Regional Councils. Below is a transcript of Aaron's interview with Michelle Levy.
"In terms of transformation... I'm talking about transforming processes of decision making by bringing diversity into that space of decision making," she said
(Listen to the full interview below:)
Aaron: So you're running for the Raglan Community Board. Why are you doing that?
Michelle Levy: Maybe if we start with a little bit about who I am, that will help answer the question.
Michelle Levy: I've been a resident of Raglan sort of on and off for the past 22 years. My mother and father both live here. At one time they were living in Te Mata on Te Hutewai Road. They're both in their eighties now so they both live here. I live with my father and my mother in Raglan as well. So on my father's side, I whakapapa to Waikato, to Ngāti Mahuta in Taupiri. On my mother's side, my mother is pākeha from down south in Dunedin. In terms of whakapapa, I'm not mana whenua and it's really important to be clear about that. I'm not mana whenua but I affiliate through our Tainui waka and through Waikato iwi as well so that sort of brings me to Whāingaroa.
In terms of my background, at various times I worked in central government for Te Puni Kokiri, in policy and research and strategy development - that type of thing. More recently when I've been back, (this was going back 20 years working at Waikato University as a lecturer in the psychology department, and kaupapa Māori psychology and at that time I got my PhD in that space as well) probably for the past ten or 15 years, I've been working for myself primarily in the space of Māori health, Māori mental health - really in areas of transformation in that space. So working with Māori models such as Whānau Ora, Mahi a Atua, which are models looking at transforming our space for Māori, but for everyone and addressing equity in those spaces.
Aaron: So that's kind of changing the bureaucratic system to solve problems that the old system has clearly failed to do.
Michelle Levy: Yes that's right. Equity is a big focus in that and if you're addressing equity, you're addressing the entire system, changing entire paradigms and entire systems.
Aaron: That's really challenging in a bureaucracy.
Michelle Levy: Most of my work is outside of bureaucracy working with Māori organisations, working with iwi.
Aaron: OK so that's the way to do it.
Michelle Levy: So I haven't been in bureaucracies for a very long time but having worked in them, I have an understanding of how they work and also an understanding of how policy works and of how to utilise policy to actually make change. It's really my work in those spaces, at a local level, community level, regionally with iwi, Waikato Tainui, other iwi around the country and also at a national level at times. So I led the analysis on Māori data on the Government inquiry into mental health and addiction.
That's sort of the skill set that I have and that's really in terms of deciding to stand for the community board. I'm not sure if I heard a little bit of the last end of Lisa's interview, but she was talking about how we're in a real transformative space in local government, partly because of the Māori wards, well a lot to do with the introduction of Māori wards, but along with that we have a huge amount of Māori candidates standing across general seats as well. Bringing that diversity into local government is the start of transformation and its transformation because it brings diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and diversity of lens which actually benefits us all.
Aaron: It brings more information to the table for decision making doesn't it?
Michelle Levy: Absolutely, it does. It brings wider perspectives and wider viewpoints and different ways in which to think about things and you don't have that if people aren't at the table. So this local body election is transformative, it's the beginning of transformation. I was just reflecting on that and I go into spaces where there is transformative potential. For me, I really felt it was an obligation to bring my skills, at this particular point in time, to just aid our journey - that transformative journey.
Aaron: Do you think, outside of the things you've talked about, that the community itself - just in a general sense - is in a state of transition or transformation?
Michelle Levy: I think it can be. I think if we talk about the COVID response now, because I think it's a real example.
Aaron: People might have heard Lisa saying that you were part of that COVID response team that formed so if people were listening, this is the same person Lisa was talking about.
Michelle Levy: Yes so I connected with Lisa, I think it was during the pandemic. I think Auckland was still in lockdown and we were moving into that space where there was going to be community transmission. I contacted Lisa, just to offer up my skills. I was concerned about what was going to happen at that time, because no communities really were that well prepared for that to happen. I have a background in understanding equity and inequity and pandemic's impact on those with the least, the most. We had seen that time and time again in big cities like Auckland. People were falling through the cracks. So in a small place like here, we were going to have people falling through the cracks and not getting what they needed. That's how I sort of got involved in the community COVID work.
What we as a group were able to do was really mobilise our community resources, with no funding initially, to ensure that people in the community who were testing positive had all the support and information that they needed. We really did that by simply utilising the resources we had and those were people resources. They were primarily people resources because we had no money resources. My sort of role in that was bringing my skills around planning and systems to actually move from a point of talking, to actually operationalising it. Because we had operationalised very, very quickly.
Aaron: Yeah and you're a new group trying to reach out to the community. I guess we were part of that here but the days are gone when everyone tuned into the one station. The community and people are on many different sources and most of those are online but then there's people who are not online as well.
Michelle Levy: Yeah.
Aaron: Like how substantial a part of the community is that because I don't really know.
Michelle Levy: Who are not online?
Aaron: Yeah and hard to access. Does anyone know?
Michelle Levy: I don't know. I'm not sure actually. But with the COVID response, it was about getting people who were hooked into the community. They were the ones who accessed those people - so people like Margaret Dillon - she was a pivotal connector who was accessing all sorts of people who were challenged in the connectivity, whether it was the Internet or even cell phone connectivity.
Aaron: Yeah, I think it was her I’m thinking of because she was talking about people who come over from Te Akau to use the water at the wharf and things like that. It's a whole side of life I'm not aware of.
Michelle Levy: So Margaret, she was pivotal. People like that who are the connectors in the community. They are the real connectors in the community and the COVID response was bringing together all those groups. There was a group of volunteers, we were down at the rugby club assisting the DHB, now Whatu Ora, and they were under significant pressure. They were getting new information every day about how things were working, they were coming out here for a couple of hours then they were travelling out to other rural places and they were briefed in the morning and they were given a set of instructions. By the time they arrived to us, sometimes that had changed, policy had changed. So being able to support them by just ensuring that they could distribute the RATs - but the team of volunteers down there could ensure that people coming down knew what was happening and knew where to go. There were people in cars who were very sick and they just needed their tests and it was those early days, there were queues going out of the rugby club.
Aaron: Oh yeah, I was at the back end of one of them at one point, I know how long it was.
Michelle Levy: So just managing that was all volunteer effort. The Time Bank were involved, Surfside Church were involved, the Community House, Poihakena and the marae collective had already mobilised their response from a little while before that. It was all linking into that and led to the establishment of an 0800 number very quickly, a couple of people who are standing for the board were involved as well, Kiri Binnerseley was down there at one point. Selena Coombes was a major player in that as well. It was really drawing on all of those resources so there is significant potential in the community for self-determined transformation.
Aaron: Right.
Michelle Levy: Which does not necessarily rely on waiting for council to do something or waiting for bureaucracies to do something.
Aaron: Okay. So do you think that being on the community board, which seems like it's entirely within council, do you think there's more to it than that would you say?
Michelle Levy: What do you mean?
Aaron: Like just going to meetings, doing all the council stuff?
Michelle Levy: Hugely, hugely. It's the transformative potential. Otherwise, I wouldn't be standing at all. It's the potential which exists to bring more people into those types of spaces which then participate in decision making, which then leads to transformation. We can't transform if we're not participating in some way so yes, way more than the day to day business of the council.
Aaron: So I ask every community board candidate this question and it ties into it, which is that I presume you're aware that the community board is an advisory group, it doesn't have strict powers. Do you still think things can be achieved in that environment?
Michelle Levy: Yep, absolutely. For me and the skill set that I have, by bringing more people from the community into processes of council, (which the community board sort of facilitates for example) into things like bylaws, submissions to bylaws and things like that, which sound (to a lot of people) exceptionally boring and dry and of no relevance but a lot of them are of significant relevance.
Aaron: That's the thing. They're irrelevant until they become relevant.
Michelle Levy: That's right. Sometimes they just need to be presented in a way so the relevance is made clear. I think one of the good examples of that which is sitting around at the moment is the liquor licensing bylaw.
In terms of community self determining their direction, that bylaw is quite significant because there's significant research which says: the more liquor licensing - particularly off licences you have in a community - leads to harm. There's a whole body of research and that's really what South Auckland and Manukau have been fighting for years; to get control over how many liquor outlets they have in their area. So communities understanding the impacts of this type of bylaw, they can then start to participate in their process and start exerting their sort of power to say, “No, this is not what we want.”
Aaron: There were strong feelings when Thirsty Liquor was proposed for downtown. There was a very strong response from the community.
Michelle Levy: There's a very strong body of evidence which shows, in very clear detail. There's been really detailed research done into this, like quantitative research.
Aaron: Is there capacity under the legislation for council to actually be effective in controlling liquor licences?
Michelle Levy: I think so. I don't know the ins and out of the bylaw.
Aaron: That's what it comes down to a little bit isn't it? The legislation.
Michelle Levy: And South Auckland really were the ones that pushed that and pushed that for communities to have greater control over those types of licences because the communities are the ones that are picking up the consequences of such high numbers within small, small areas.
Aaron: So I guess if there's been a strong push from that part of the country that it may be having an effect at the national level.
Michelle Levy: Yeah so there's room for the community to get involved. But you need to take the process and you need to take it to people, as opposed to putting it out and just saying, “The bylaws ready, put submissions here.” You need to go a step further and think about who in the community may be interested in this? Who in the community has a stake in this? And then going to them to say, “This is what this means. If you're interested in this particular thing, this is how you can participate. Here's how we can help,” from my point of view, to help you put in submissions or help you to have your voice heard in that respect.
Aaron: So you think part of the role on the community board is not just to announce things, but to actually go looking for the people who need to know.
Michelle Levy: For me, it is, absolutely. Because it's about community engagement and participation and local body decision making and if the community board is representative of the community, you need to find ways to engage people in that process, to bring people, to empower people to participate.
Aaron: Okay. So you've talked about transformation and we often have a community that wants the vibe of the community to stay the same. And in either case, whether you want it to stay the same or not, there needs to be a vision about where you're going. So what do you see as a vision for the community?
Michelle Levy: Can I just clarify, like in terms of transformation, transformation for me, I'm really talking about transforming processes of decision making. I'm not talking about transforming the community.
Aaron: [laughs] You're not putting a motorway through here.
Michelle Levy: No. [laughs] Can you make that very clear? I'm talking about transforming processes of decision making by bringing diversity into that space of decision making.
So me, myself, I don't necessarily have a vision for Whāingaroa, because I think that there are number of groups who have the vision already for Whāingaroa, Raglan Naturally is of course, one of those who have done an enormous amount of work in articulating that and working with hapū to articulate that. So for me, it's transformation in the decision making spaces and bringing more people into the decision making space. The conversations that we can have around the community board and council are not everything that the council's doing wrong, but how we can actually show or participate meaningfully to ensure the council understands what we want in this community. Sometimes standing on the sidelines and pointing out everything that's wrong is not actually contributing to changing and to transforming.
Aaron: It's kind of a powerless place, isn't it?
Michelle Levy: It is if you're standing on the sidelines. By participating in the processes, that's the only way that we can actually strive to make change.
Aaron: It's a different kind of realm dealing with council processes, it feels like a different culture.
Michelle Levy: It's a bureaucracy and it's a bureaucracy which is trying to cover a huge geographical area, hugely diverse communities and that's just a mess of a task in itself. So the systems that are trying to be systems that work for that entire area, there are ways in which you can make those systems work better. Lisa, I think the other night, was talking about that in terms of procurement processes, how to get that localised, which will make a significant difference to how quickly we can get things done here. So there are layers and layers of bureaucracy, but there's also ways in which we can engage the community better and empower the community to better participate in those.
Aaron: Have you got an example you could give there?
Michelle Levy: None of this answers your question but it's more like; one of the candidates you interviewed earlier this week, Sharnay. Is she standing for the Taupiri Community Board?
Aaron: Yeah and for the new Māori ward.
Michelle Levy: Yeah, for the Māori ward. She's rangatahi, in terms of, she’s a young adult. She's done two terms already on the board and is going to stand in the ward seat - in the Māori ward seat. For me, she just encompasses what it means to participate in the processes in order to make change. She has already sat there for two terms on the community board and is aspiring to go greater. There's another couple of rangatahi in Huntly who are standing for their community boards as well. I don't think I'm answering your question,
Aaron: But that's an indicator for you that better decision making will happen.
Michelle Levy: And of how you bring others into the process, that these rangatahi are standing and wanting to serve their communities in this way and they are making changes as they're going about that. So for me, in terms of the community board here, one of the things that I'm really interested in is mentoring rangatahi into that space as well in similar ways.
Aaron: Do you think some of it is that you have personal networks and you go to them a lot of the time?
Michelle Levy: In terms of how you engage people?
Aaron: Yes, engaging with the community.
Michelle Levy: Yeah, but I think the COVID community response is a good example. You had a group of people and you were there on some of those Zooms as well. There's a network there but everyone has reached into different communities. We knew that we were not going to be able to reach communities who are sitting rurally, for example, in Waingaro. But there are other people who know those communities inside out and so it's those relationships that you have - they're informal, some are formal, some are informal, but it's all relationships.
Aaron: That's what I was wondering.
Michelle Levy: Yeah, it's relational. That's why working from a relational point of view is really important. It's all about relationships. So very quickly, using the COVID response as an example again, we have a whānau ring up or someone says, "I know this whānau, they need this, this and this," very quickly, we mobilise - who's the best person to do it? Who's the best person to meet that blah blah blah. And within 5 minutes, it's all sorted because everyone had relationships with each other, connected very quickly, decided very quickly who was the best person, who was the best group? And then that whānau had their needs met very, very quickly and very simply. So it is about relationships.
Aaron: Yeah and that's not a top down structure that's doing that. It's a network.
Michelle Levy: Yeah, that's right. It's a network and those networks exist. They already exist and they are already very strong. Everyone has access to some of those networks already. Another thing I do is I am the instructor for Raglan Light Exercise Group. Which is predominantly older people in the community. I think a couple of years ago I was filling in, I was helping them out, but I'm still there.
Aaron: Yeah. That's how it works.
Michelle Levy: But there's a network there into that portion of the community. Because we sit in these spaces, we don't think of them as networks, but they're all our relationships that we have and everyone has them all over the community. Actually the Raglan Light Exercise Group, when they heard I was standing for the board, they made me these little bumper stickers.
Aaron: Oh Did they?
Michelle Levy: They did.
Aaron: There we go. Awesome. Hey, look, we're kind of out of time, but I'll ask you the same question that I asked Lisa at the end and everyone, which is: tell us briefly why people should vote for you.
Michelle Levy: That's a little bit of a hard question to answer but I think, for me, I bring a skillset to the table which I think can build on the work the community board has already done. They've done amazing work already and they will continue to do great work in terms of the projects and things that they were working on. I bring a skillset which actually tries to move forward in bringing more people into the decision making space in a really positive way - and to allow voices within the community, that are not necessarily heard, to actually have a voice in those processes by bringing those processes to people and bringing them into the process. So I believe I have a set of skills that I can offer to the community at this time. And I also wish all the other candidates all the very best of luck. There's a great set of people.
Aaron: Nine this time, which from a voter's perspective, is awesome.
Michelle Levy: That's right and again, that's a sign of the transformation in local government, when you have more people willing to participate and willing to step up and say that they have something to offer.
Aaron: All right, folks, we've been talking to Michelle Levy running for Raglan Community Board and good luck with your campaign.
Michelle Levy: Kia ora Aaron, thank you.