This interview transcript has been edited for clarity and readability.
Aaron: Hey, you’re listening to the Morning Show here on Raglan Community Radio and online. I’ve got Gary McGuire. Good morning.
Gary McGuire: Morning, Aaron. How are you?
Aaron: We’re doing pretty well down here in Raglan. It’s a sort of sunny morning. Where are you located?
Gary McGuire: Tuakau.
Aaron: Okay, so up the line a bit.
Gary McGuire: Yeah it’s the most northern part of the Waikato. Our territory, the Waikato, goes from Karioitahi to Maangatangi to Tamahere, and halfway between Raglan and Kāwhia.
Aaron: Yeah, It’s slightly confusing, because there’s the Waikato Regional Council and there’s Waikato constituency, with the same outline as the Waikato District Council. But you are running for the Regional Council in this constituency, so just tell us why you’re running.
Gary McGuire: I’ve been asked to stand for this position over the last 30 years, and I’ve avoided it like the plague, to tell you the truth. I am concerned about the cost of living crisis. I’m concerned about Plan Change 1, and there’s other business as well, like passenger rail in the north Waikato to give people service up here. But one of the key parts that drives what I’m doing is this Plan Change 1. It’s a threat to farming and to our communities – our towns and villages that depend on farming and agriculture. This Plan Change 1 is very threatening.
Aaron: So can you be a bit more specific about what those threats are?
Gary McGuire: It’s tied in with the Treaty claim for the river and the freshwater standards, which all farmers are really making a real effort to look after the environment – and I support that 100 percent. But some of the things in Plan Change 1, which is before the Environment Court at the moment. The interim judgment is coming out and will go back to Council.
That is tied in with the Resource Management Act, which is being rewritten at the moment. The concerns are the over-regulation of farming to the point that a lot of growers and farmers will be out of business. Commercial growing will be pretty much finished. Dairy farming would have to be reduced to something like between 50% to 10% of what it is at the moment – and there goes the New Zealand economy. Sheep and beef farmers would also have to reduce their stocking rates to 50%.
Aaron: So hold on, you’re saying dairy farming would be reduced in our region to, what, 10% to 15% percent of what it is now?
Editor’s note: In this section the interviewer misheard the speaker. The reference was to “50%,” not “15%.”
Gary McGuire: Somewhere there, that’s what is forecast under Plan Change 1.
Aaron: I haven’t heard anyone else say this. Who’s making that forecast?
Gary McGuire: It’s in the report, I went to the meeting in Ngaruawahia last Monday, where the scientists down there gave the report on behalf of Waikato Regional Council. That is in those reports and it’s deeply concerning to farmers and commercial growers.
A lot of the commercial growers in this area up here, like those in Pukekohe, but they operate right down through the Waikato. The consenting standards that would be put on growers would literally wipe them out. If you think your grocery bill is high now, it would go through the roof. The New Zealand economy, and small towns right through the whole Waikato, would be severely damaged, so people’s employment would just disappear.
It’s unworkable and unchangeable. We’ve got to do what we can to put a hold on Plan Change 1. The Government has requested that all regional policy changes be put on hold until after the Resource Management Act is rewritten.
Editor’s note: Waikato Regional Council says there was no scientific report at the Ngāruawāhia meeting. What was mentioned was a modelling tool, called the Scenario Builder, which shows “what if” scenarios for reducing farm contaminants. It’s a way of helping people visualise possible long-term outcomes, not a set of rules. Plan Change 1 is focused on the next 10 years and does not require farmers or growers to change their land use at this stage.
Aaron: So this process with Plan Change 1 has been going on for about a decade now. I’d presume that with that much momentum, it would not actually be stopped. There must be some sort of cut-off. Normally, when the government changes something from a previous government, they’ll say: those things at this stage keep going, and these things stop. I would have thought this would be one of those things that’s nearly done. I’m just trying to get my head around this.
Gary McGuire: That is what others in Regional Council are saying, but it’s not what the politicians and central government are saying. Getting straight here, I support the coalition government that is there at the moment – the whole spectrum, not just New Zealand First, or National, or ACT. I support that whole spectrum. It’s a very broad spectrum.
Announcements that have come out recently say they want regional councils to put all work on these regional plans on hold until after Christmas and into the new year, when the new RMA will come through.
Aaron: So the other candidates are saying this process is so far down the line it cannot be stopped. It’s a piece of legislation which overrides a lot of Regional Council work, but it’s also now before the Environment Court, which has the final say on many things. That’s slightly different to what you’re saying. They’re saying it can’t be stopped, and you’re saying it can be stopped. How do we work out what’s actually going to happen there?
Gary McGuire: Okay, I’ll read something that came through to me from Simon Court, who is with the ACT Party. Like I say, I cover the whole lot, I support the coalition government as a whole.
(reading)
“A couple of weeks ago, the government passed what we hope and intend to be the last amendment to the Resource Management Act. In that legislation, which has just gone through, we’ve suspended plan changes across the country. We’ve said ‘time out’ until we get the new resource management system passed through all stages next year and then transition.
“What that means is for councils like Environment Waikato (Waikato Regional Council) and others around the country who are taking their plan changes through and then say forcing farmers to get consents for things that are normal farming activity, the message is: stop, and stop now.
“So what I expect is that you won’t see this continue.”
That came from Simon Court yesterday.
Aaron: So that’s somebody in government, but he’s just sending a message. What actual Act of Parliament or direction is going to stop it? I guess that’s what I want to know.
Gary McGuire: That’s probably above my pay scale, that one. But what he’s saying here is that they are directing regional councils to put a hold on it. I know Pamela Storey said last night at a Onewhero that no, it can’t stop – it’s past the point.
Yes, there’s $30 million of ratepayers’ money that’s been spent, and probably another $30 million on top of that with other farmers and growers who have put in a considerable amount in, to try and bring some common sense to Plan Change 1.
If it comes to that – if all that money has been spent and there is no measurable benefit – where it’s going to shut down farms… The other point is that the directive from the Environment Court, from what I was told in the last couple of days, is that; a lot of the measures that would put farmers, growers, and towns in jeopardy will not be allowed to pass through.
So what we’re probably heading for is get Plan Change 1 to come through – and there’s the judgment – and then likely a Plan Change 2.
Aaron: So if they do a Plan Change 2, knowing Council processes, that will take quite a while to happen, won’t it?
Gary McGuire: Correct
Aaron: But I guess we’re operating at the speed of council. So if that is what happens, then…
Gary McGuire: The main thing we need is to get this country back on track again. It’s been in recession for too long now. Everybody’s hurting, and we’ve got to do whatever we can – responsibly– for the environment, and for everybody. Everybody has to be treated equally, and that’s one of the major stands I stand on too: equality.
Aaron: So what do you mean by equality? What are you talking about with equality?
Gary McGuire: Other things that are being pushed by iwi is that they are wanting farms to be regulated under resource consents. They want control of the Waikato River, they want control of the water, and they want to be the ones that oversee the resource consents.
There’s a strong thought that this is race-based politics. We are one nation, with one law for all. To put that sort of responsibility in the hands of one group, just based on ethnicity, is not there.
Aaron: You must know you’re talking to a community here who probably doesn’t agree with that. The argument coming back to you would be that one of the founding documents of the country is the Treaty of Waitangi, and that requires working together with iwi. So can you answer that a little bit?
Gary McGuire: Well… Yes, it’s a founding document, and I support that well and truly. But if you want to have harmonious race relations in New Zealand – which are under threat at the moment – we don’t want to follow the same track other countries have gone down overseas. I could see that happening, sadly. That’s not what I’m promoting, don’t worry.
I was brought up in a mixed-race town here in Tuakau. I’ve grown up in the sandpit, from a kid with mixed race, and we get on fine and everybody works together. But there’s too much of a drive at the moment that’s pushing division, and that worries me.
Aaron: I’ve got to be honest. The perspective around here is that the division at the moment is being driven by one particular party in the coalition. A lot of people are saying misinformation is coming from David Seymour. Do you want to respond to that?
Gary McGuire: Look, I’m not part of the ACT Party. Let’s get that straight.
Aaron: Okay, fair enough.
Gary McGuire: I’m supposed to be answering questions on Regional Council, but yeah, I’ll go there.
Aaron: Yeah, I know. We’ve gone a bit off track, but I asked the question now so let’s get a quick answer.
Gary McGuire: Look, if the listeners want to get to the nitty-gritty, then let’s have a conversation. I’ve got no problem with it at all.
The Treaty Principles Bill – when it came to that, with Regional Council bringing back spending priorities and where the focus of Regional Council is supposed to be – the Council should be focusing on core services. That’s what keeps rates down and keeps Council focused.
But the Council that’s there at the moment is very divided. A lot of votes have been seven-all, with the chairperson’s casting vote often going to the left in this council. That’s pretty obvious.
One of the things I was told was that Council staff were directed to write submissions on the Treaty Principles Bill. That is not the core business of Waikato Regional Council. It has nothing to do with drainage, Civil Defence, or transport. That is political interfering from staff and certain aligned people in that Council, and that is simply not the domain of Waikato Regional Council. They should have stayed out.
Aaron: So did you read those submissions?
Gary McGuire: No, and I don’t see why they should have even been there.
Aaron: Okay, well, neither of us have read it, so I don’t think we can go very far with that.
Gary McGuire: That’s fair enough
Aaron: You’re part of the Rates Control group so I want to ask how that works. I’ve been told – though not by someone in it – that you vote as a group. I’ve heard that implication. Can you clear that up for me? How does it work for you as a group?
Gary McGuire: Well, there are eight of us right though, so we’re trying to get a common agreement on things. We’ll sit down and discuss, and no doubt there are differences within the group, but in general we share the same direction. I can’t speak for all the others further down the district so much – they may have totally different ideas to myself – but we sit around the table and work things through to get common goals. We seem to be on the right, on the same track, is what I see.
Aaron: I talked to Noel Smith yesterday, or the day before, and he said he was invited to join the Rates Control group but wanted to maintain his ability to vote independently for his community.
So my question is: if you’ve got someone at one end of the district with their community saying one thing, and at the other end their community is saying something else, is it compulsory that if you join you have to vote with the group?
Gary McGuire: No, that wouldn’t be democratic at all.
Aaron: Well, that’s why I’m asking the question.
Gary McGuire: Yeah, we generally all agree, and we sit down and go through things – which we already have. I’m new to the group; I’ve only been pulled in over the last few months. It’s more to do with my background in drainage issues and representing farmers and growers.
I was 46 years chairman of the Tuakau Drainage District, 30 years in the Tuakau Business Association, and a founding trustee of the Tuakau Emergency Services Charitable Trust. I also did three years’ service on the Lower Waikato–Waipā Control Scheme, running the power dams on the Waikato River. That was a number of years ago. I spent two years as a volunteer ambulance officer. So my experience covers all sorts, right through.
I’m head of the Tuakau Community Response Group. I was in Raglan a few months ago with Lisa Thomson and your amazing team there for training at Raglan. Yeah, sorry, I’m drifting.
Aaron: No, that’s fine. Normally I’d ask the question: what experience do you have that would be relevant to the job? And you’ve actually just done that, which is good – we want to know that.
I do have one controversial sentence from your statement I want to talk about. You said: “Our team opposes the creeping co-governance of fresh water.” I’ve got to be honest – that sounds a little paranoid. “Creeping co-governance.” Do you want to unpack that?
Gary McGuire: Yep. The Treaty settlement between the Government and Tainui, along with the other five river iwi, is worded as joint management – a JMA, Joint Management Agreement. We have no problem with joint management at all. That’s fine. All of the sentiments of looking after the river and the waters, and trying to get them back to better condition is a principle that we all agree on.
But when it comes to co-governance, there’s a big difference between co-management and co-governance. Co-governance is where you give power to unelected people to have an equal say – or in this case, it’s not actually equal, because extra iwi seats on the other side that swing the balance of power. Co-governance, when it comes to ownership and control of water, whoever controls water – controls everything.
What we’ve found of late is that the Resource Management Act has been used as a weapon under Plan Change 1. The prime example is the Motukaraka Swamp. This is a test case, the first off the rank, and whatever happens with PC1 will likely be rolled out through other catchments – by catchments I’m talking not just drainage districts, but across the country.
But back to Motukaraka. For 50 years, it’s been running perfectly, with a big screw pump down there. I was there when they first put it in – I did the chainsawing and gelignite blasting at the Mercer Swamp, cutting tracks for those original drainage schemes. Then I’ve gone right through to develop land myself.
Motukaraka is 4,600 acres of some of the most productive dairy country land in the world. Now it comes up for resource consent, and this is where the RMA comes in: it says you must have consultation and agreements, tied in with the Waikato River settlement. So all of a sudden, the Whangamarino Wetland – which has been poorly managed – You can ask me about that question next and I’ll elaborate.
Aaron: I’m running out of time, to be honest. So we’ll just stick with this one.
Gary McGuire: The Motukaraka – 4,600 acres of land. The proposal was to refuse to renew the resource consents for the screw pump and stopbanks, pull out the pump, pull out the stopbanks, and flood that 4,600 acres of pristine farmland, turning it back into wetland.
Now, this is an ultimate threat. It’s not likely to go ahead, but tat is was proposed and put forward – and it would put all those farmers out of business, with no compensation. That’s using the Resource Management Act as a weapon.
Aaron: I don’t know anything about those specific issues, but I feel like you’re using some quite strong language about the Resource Management Act being used as a weapon. I have to be honest – I don’t mean to be rude – but it does sound kind of paranoid.
I know of organisations down here where co-governance is operating, and everything seems to be going fine – ones that I know quite well. So I’m not sure everyone is going to be on board with that message. It sounds like you’re coming for a fight. Does it feel like that to you – that you’re there for a fight?
Gary McGuire: No, Aaron. We’re fine with joint management. We’re fine with everybody being equal. We’re fine with equality. I’m not picking a fight – I’m trying to avoid one.
If anything, I want to make sure there’s racial harmony, and bustling, prosperous centres and towns and farming communities, and that get this whole country back on track again. Right now, it’s off the rails.
Aaron: So that’s what I mean. That kind of language sounds slightly apocalyptic.
Gary McGuire: That it is. Sorry Aaron.
Okay, all right, cool – we agree, that’s where you’re coming from.
Aaron: Look, it’s time for me to wrap up. It’s the end of the show. Thank you for your time and for putting up with my questions. Are we going to see you at the Meet the Candidates on Sunday the 14th?
Gary McGuire: Absolutely. My heart is in this district. Honesty, integrity, loyalty, trust, and empathy are what I’ve built my life around. Some of your people I know well. I was a great mate of Royden Hartstone down there – he was one of the men who helped me in my early days back in 1999 to get into business.
And the Lisa Thomsons of the world – they’re fantastic. The people in Raglan, with the riparian planting and the work that they’ve done, it’s fantastic. I’m 100 percent in support of the people in Raglan.
Aaron: All right, Gary, thank you for your time this morning, and we’ll see you in a week or so.