This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability
Aaron
We’re on to our third interview this morning. I’ve got Nicola Laboyrie here with me. Good morning.
Nicola Laboyrie
Oh, good morning, Aaron. Thank you for having me.
Aaron
So you’re running for Raglan Community Board and the Raglan Council position.
Nicola Laboyrie
Correct.
Aaron
At the same time?
Nicola Laboyrie
That’s right, yes.
Aaron
So for people listening, if you get the council job and you’re also voted onto the community board, you take the council job, and the next person in the ranking order goes up into the community board. That’s what they normally do. I don’t know if anyone needed to know that, but that’s what happens.
Nicola Laboyrie
Good to know, though.
Aaron
So normally, what I do—you haven’t been on the board before, and we don’t know you in that field—so I just wanted to do a few ‘get to know you’ things. Tell us about your family and career over the years.
Nicola Laboyrie
Sure. I probably moved to Raglan with a surfer [laughs] many years ago, in the 80s. I left my good job in Wellington doing internal audit and moved up here with him. He was shaping surfboards for Ian Thompson and that kind of thing.
A few years later, I met my husband, my lovely husband Aaron, in the Raglan pub. He offered me some whitebait and crayfish, and I thought that was a pretty good deal [laughs]. He was working for Hartstone Seafoods at the time.
I loved Raglan once I came here—end of the 80s, I suppose. So I’ve certainly seen changes. Anyway, back to how it all began with Aaron. We’ve had our children here, Finn and Estelle. People may know them from the community.
Aaron
They’re in their early 20s, are they?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yeah, they’re early 20s now. Finn was at Raglan Area, and Aaron helped out with rugby and things with the boys there. Estelle went to Raglan Area early on, and then I ended up homeschooling her. So we’ve been involved in community things ever since.
Aaron
You said you stopped your career to come up to Raglan.
Nicola Laboyrie
Well, I did actually get back into work, in Hamilton. I ended up at what was the Waikato Polytech at the time. I got involved in teaching small business management, then progressed to teaching degree programmes at Wintec.
Once Hartstone sold to Raukura Moana Fisheries, we got a charter boat and started Megabyte Fishing Charters in about 2000. We ran that business for some time, and then gradually got into farming. Now we have a very big, hairy runoff beef block in Te Uku. That was a proceeds-of-crime farm. So that was interesting, buying that.
Aaron
A proceeds of crime?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yes. It came up for sale because the previous owners got done by the cops.
Aaron
For growing something they shouldn’t have been growing?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yeah, and a little bit more than that— a bit of cooking as well. Somehow we ended up with that, we put in a tender, won it, and thought, crikey, now what? We’ve probably spent the last 12 years spraying gorse and battling weeds, just trying to get it to work for us.
Aaron
With all those different career experiences, what parts do you think are relevant to being on council or the community board?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yeah, so I have very strange interests. I’ve had quite a strong interest in macroeconomics, and I’ve followed international politics. With my long training and degrees, I’ve got quite good at sort of reading different papers. I had to read research and do research, so that’s my interest.
When I’ve been spraying, I’ve been able to listen to quite a few world authorities on different topics, and I listen to podcasts from various different people. So I’ve kept quite a strong grip on what’s happening.
I do understand some of the mechanisms behind what we’re in as a cost-of-living crisis. People are realising they’ve got less money left in their wallet. Things like rates bills, or just the cost of living, seem to be going up much higher than people’s ability to earn. So that’s the crisis that we’re in.
I think in these times, sad as it may be, we’re going to have to cut back. Things like, for instance, our local council—even government—there are wasteful things that we really need to look at. Is this a nice-to-have, or is it a need-to-have? Because I think people are getting to the point where they’re no longer able to afford the rates, and the trajectory that it’s on.
Aaron So this is kind of a topic I’m going to talk about with everyone, this time around. People are finding it difficult paying rates alongside the cost-of-living crisis. People are talking about the difficulty paying electricity bills this winter. And for a long time now, we’ve had homeless people living in cars, kids going to school hungry, both parents working full-time and still not earning enough money – things like that. So while we look at the rates, it’s part of a bigger picture—
Nicola Laboyrie
It is. Definitely. It’s connected.
Aaron
If you had the power, a magic wand, you could solve all those problems at once by getting to the source of that. I guess that’s the Macro economic picture and how governments have been running things over the last few decades. But as a councillor, what can you do?
Nicola Laboyrie
Okay, so we just have to stick to the real basics. I’ve just pared it right back. Councils need to stick to core services.
Just to remind people—the roads are actually a big factor in the council budget. It’s a utility service: it’s there to provide you with roads, take your waste away, give you water, and provide a few amenities. There’s a bit of dog control, the library, just some other little things.
I’ve had some dealings working in council and I can see there are a lot of inefficiencies. It’s turned into a bit of a blob, which is the same as many government organisations. They seem to be this big blob that’s no longer focusing on the people.
The power needs to come back a bit more to the people. They need to have more money in their own pocket to spend.
A practical thing could be that—okay, a third of the budget is going towards roading. That’s from the annual plans I’ve looked at from Waikato District Council – the basic reading that I’ve done – I know I’m meant to cover the whole district, but I’m wondering—are we in Whāingaroa getting a proper proportion of our funding? Is it doing our roads?
So I think we need to look for inefficiencies in roading, because it’s such an important issue. Are we getting sufficient value for our money in terms of the roads?
For example, rural ratepayers don’t have the benefits of water systems and other urban services. Their roading is pretty much the one thing their rates go towards. They want to see value in roads
That’s where they want to see value—how good are my roads? How are my potholes? Am I killing my car? Do I need a four-wheel drive because I can’t have a smaller car—it would shake it to pieces? Rice burners are no good on those dirt roads.
Aaron
Yeah they don’t pay for the wastewater system because they don’t use it.
Nicola Laboyrie
And very seldom would they get to the library or, they don’t always get to enjoy the beautiful gardens that Wendy used to do before. They measure their value on rates in terms of… well, how good is my road? How are my potholes? Am I killing my car? Do I need to have a four wheel drive because I can’t have a smaller car, because it would shake it to pieces. So rice burners are no good on those kinds of dirt roads.
Aaron
What’s a rice burner?
Nicola Laboyrie
It’s one of those little Japanese cars that are quite cheap to run.
Aaron
Okay, right.
Nicola Laboyrie
So those sorts of factors—it’s really simple. People just want the council to stick to the basics, the core business of what we pay for, and to serve the ratepayers.
Aaron
My worry is that with the economic trend, this disparity between rich and poor—and most of us seem to be poorer now—we can cut some council services, and then in a few years, we need to cut more, and more, because we’re not solving the root problem. We’re going to end up cutting the things we currently call essential. And I do agree council seems inefficient when you interact with them, but I feel like they’ve always been that way?
Nicola Laboyrie
But it’s got bigger, and I would suggest sometimes the service has got poorer.
There are things that can be looked into, certainly. With roading, I think if it’s more transparent—if people can see there are actual figures out there, like how many kilometres are we sealing versus unsealed roads, how much progress have we made—people notice.
People are just taking notice and if processes can be made more transparent, and I can see, “Yes, I can see this funding has been spent here and I can see improvement there,” then you get back trust.
Part of the problem is people are now watching what the council is up to because they’re losing trust. I know certainly in the community there are murmurs of people feeling desperate, wondering if they can just not pay rates and get out of the system. I think that’s quite sad—if people are really losing trust, in that sort of system, you need to bring it back.
You have to come back to value. People have to perceive they’re getting value for rates. You have to get some kind of accountability so that people can view that, yes, I can trust that council is spending my money here. We really need to have better insight. It’s actually quite hard to see the cost of decisions.
We need to get back to: what is the benefit for the ratepayer for this perceived project, and what is the cost going to be? That has to be at the fundamental basis of all council decisions. And then—how does it benefit the community?
So there are ways we can make it simpler. I think the messaging, the decisions, need to be run past a simple set of parameters: what is the cost and what is the benefit? Who’s paying, who benefits?
Aaron
Would you agree with the government recently changing— and this happens every time we get a change of government. Previous Labour governments tended to bring in, wellbeing factors. I haven’t got the right terminology—
Nicola Laboyrie
Yeah, wellbeing.
Aaron
But then this government is getting rid of it. Do you agree with getting wellbeing out of the plan?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yes, I do. Because I think we’ve got to get back to the simple things. People, no matter who they are, don’t want to drive on a bumpy road. They want to make sure when we get excess rainfall, the drains can cope, that they’re being maintained correctly, that flooding isn’t coming into your house.
It’s all really quite simple—also that we’re not having excess runoff into the harbour, poisoning our environment. I’d suggest most people have the same kind of goals.
If council can focus on the very simple things, and just really put their efforts and monies into improving those, they can stay out of people’s lives.
The council really should just be working quietly behind the scenes. Wellbeing and all these other nice social things should come from the people—that have their own time and money to spend on that. We shouldn’t be looking to council for that. Council’s there for very boring things, just providing amenities for the public.
Aaron
You must be aware, though, that a lot of people won’t agree with that.
Nicola Laboyrie
Oh yeah that’s fine. This is what I’m standing for and if people don’t agree with what I do then they won’t vote for me. But the people that do align and want things to come back on track, they will vote for me. I’m just trying to make it really clear where I stand. I’m not trying to please everyone. I’m coming in to just try and to bring value back to the ratepayers.
Aaron
So what are the specific things they can cut?
Nicola Laboyrie
I think there are occasions, that I’ve noticed, where council engages in lawfare—they’ll use taking people to court when things could have been resolved much cheaper for the ratepayer.
There’s also a great deal of use of consultants, which may or may not necessarily be correct. I just think there’s a whole lot of money goes into what I call “shiny bum” positions—they’re not actually funding things at the frontline – that actually benefit the community. There’s a hidden mass of people that are cashing in on the easy purse of the taxpayer.
Aaron
I do want to pick up on the issue of consultants, because it’s very popular out there to rubbish consultants, but…
Nicola Laboyrie
No, there’s some very good ones. But you also need to make sure the people reviewing council information have the skills to really drill down.
Say it’s for an engineering proposal—you really need people who understand it and can present it well to get people on board. Because there’s some decisions –I’m sure that– have been made that were poorly thought out.
Aaron
I used to work for a company that was a consultant to the Ministry of Education. That company came about because my bosses had previously worked for the Ministry — they used to design and build all the schools.
Then in the 1990s the government said, “We’re not doing that anymore,” so they had to set up a firm and become consultants, because there were 90 jobs going on at the time. If the Ministry had stopped employing those consultants, we wouldn’t have had any new school buildings.
So I get it from personal experience. I get a little frustrated when I hear people talking about consultants — and you haven’t really done it in that way, but…
Nicola Laboyrie
No, because some are good – you can get really good consultants – but you’ve got to make sure the process selects people who are reputable, not just someone’s cousin or someone that they know.
Aaron
Has that been happening in council?
Nicola Laboyrie
I’m not saying in this council. But I’ve certainly come across other evidence of that in other organisations. There are whistleblowers, but they don’t always get the protection they deserve.
Once again that comes back to accountability and transparency of decisions, we can’t have things hidden away just because someone doesn’t want you to know about it. If light can be shone on how decisions were made, and you can stand up and say, “We employed these consultants,” then people can see whether it was a good decision and money well spent.
Because ratepayers—and renters, because this flows into our housing costs— it’s their money so they need to be confident the council is working in their best interests. They are public servants. They’re meant to be serving the public. You don’t always get that feeling when you deal with council—you can feel like you’re a bit of an annoyance.
Aaron
In your personal statement, you said you’d had experience holding council to account. What was that about? Was that about something specific?
Nicola Laboyrie
I was involved in a judicial review against Waikato District Council over the horse-riding ban.
Aaron
Who’s “we”?
Nicola Laboyrie
Myself and a few friends. We engaged some very good lawyers I know that are very experienced in judicial review. We found the process hadn’t been followed.
Certainly when it came to the bylaw the simple part was that they hadn’t received sign-off from the Minister of Conservation. When our lawyer approached, the council was very quick to engage their lawyers.
All the way along we said, look, we just want to reach an amicable decision. We don’t want to have to get lawyers involved, because we can’t afford it — we knew we’d all have to try and fund it.
But the council went through with various processes—we met at Poihākena Marae twice and had to try and engage with lots of groups. But in the end it went to court.
Our lawyer advised Waikato District Council, “You’re not going to win.” And I found that to be a real problem, because, you might–
Aaron
If they hadn’t followed process that’s dependent upon law–
Nicola Laboyrie
If they had followed the process it would never have come to that. But it seemed that Council was really happy to engage in lawfare against a small, weak group using our ratepayer money–
Aaron
You weren’t that weak though because you won?
Nicola Laboyrie
Well–we were against the odds. We were lucky that our solicitor, from John Webb, gave up a lot of his time for free because we were just a small community group, we did get support. Generally, a judicial review costs an awful lot of money—it’s out of reach for most.
Aaron
The phrase itself sounds expensive. But what was the issue—was it about riding horses on the beach by the marae?
Nicola Laboyrie
No, not at all. It was quite a complicated issue. A bylaw came out in about 2008 and with zero consultation. For a start, the horse-riding community hadn’t been consulted or discussed to know there was a problem. It was just inserted, and it was quite mysterious and we couldn’t really find out what it was about.
The 2016 bylaw carried through the horse-riding ban, but it wasn’t enacted until 2020. It was quite a surprise — a sign was put up. It was just a shock because we thought, gosh, we didn’t really realise there was a problem. We would have liked to have known what the problem was to have some input. That’s how you treat citizens: you don’t just suddenly ban a group with no warning and no consultation.
As we found, we couldn’t find any actual evidence of harm to justify the decision that was made. The point is, sometimes the systems just aren’t working correctly, and it takes citizens to notice and say, hang on, this isn’t right.
It’s also worrying when council can be so blasé with ratepayer money — spending it on these legal battles that really shouldn’t be –it’s not really in their realm.
Editor’s note: Council did run a general public consultation on the bylaw in 2016, but no targeted engagement took place with horse riders, even though the bylaw imposed a default ban on horses.
Aaron
I imagine Council thought you’d back down at that point. That would be my guess, without looking into it.
I am aware that local hapū – Angeline Greensill – had raised issues. I remember being at a council presentation where I was presenting on something else, and she was there, and they were definitely complaining about horses on the beach down by the marae and had photos, And the issue from their perspective, I think, was that the numbers were growing.
Nicola Laboyrie
It wasn’t really [a problem], because most of the people we knew accessed [the beach] from the council car park at the end of Riria Kereopa Memorial Drive. That section of the bay — so when we met there we were saying, well, is there a part of the beach [affected]? And they talked about shellfish, but we all know that the area where the horses go has so much sand movement.
My husband used to live in that little house at the very end in his childhood, and people didn’t collect shellfish there. They collected piupiu further up the harbour. So we were wanting to engage, but we just felt really shut out.
To me, it wasn’t just necessarily about horse riders — but could this happen to any other group that suddenly gets shut out and not considered? To me it was like a freedom issue. My personal belief is that humans are born with inalienable rights, and government should be minimal. I’m not a great fan of government, to be fair. Their powers should be limited, and they should serve the people and provide the services that we agree to and consent to money paying for.
So when one little group can suddenly be extinguished, to me that’s not a healthy sign of a system that recognises people’s sovereignty.
Aaron
I think the council would say they would have gone through some consultation process, because they do for every bylaw. We just had the alcohol bylaw pre-engagement, and then—
Nicola Laboyrie
No, there was none.
Aaron
Nothing at all?
Nicola Laboyrie
No — there was none. We did all the [research], nothing at all. It was just inserted.
We went through, we did our proper search — we went through the Gazettes, we went through official information act to try and get to the bottom of it. And there was nothing. There was like radio silence as to why that ban was put in.
So it just shows that the system can be flawed, and people need to hold it to account.
Aaron
Every system will be flawed. But people are going to want to know, having heard this—if you’re running for council, is this to make sure you maintain control over that issue?
Nicola Laboyrie
[sighs] Not really, because it’s going to get—they’re doing a review at the moment.
Aaron
They’re going through a process to close what they see as a loophole. That’s my way of describing it—they’re going to try and put that rule back in, I presume.
Nicola Laboyrie
The thing is, should it be for the whole coastline? Which is what it was—they banned horse-riding on all Waikato beaches,
Aaron
For the whole district? Including Ruapuke and–
Nicola Laboyrie
Yes. They banned it for the whole thing. And we just thought, oh gosh, that’s a bit of an overreach. Some people who don’t like horses might think, oh no, that’s probably a good thing, but it was a bit of an overreach.
We were just trying to find some kind of compromise. We all took time off work, drove to so many meetings, but we just hit a blank wall. So…
Aaron
What happened with that bylaw was that it was kind of… struck off? I don’t know if that’s the right phrase.
Nicola Laboyrie
Yeah it was invalid. It was never deemed to be valid.
Aaron
So it’s in limbo right?. There is no bylaw.
Nicola Laboyrie
It’s in limbo right. There is no bylaw.
Aaron
And that’s what they’re going to try and work on next?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yes. I think the council is engaging and doing it correctly this time. I’m not worried about it. So I have confidence that it’ll be done properly.
Aaron
We’ve been sidetracked. I’m sort of out of time, but I always want to ask people big-picture things about Raglan and Whāingaroa. We like to think we’re special. What is it that makes us unique or different out here?
Nicola Laboyrie
I think this community out here is just so diverse and perfectly formed — very much how communities might have been years ago, with a real village feel. There are so many people who give their time and make it an amazing place to live.
I think that’s why it attracts people, if they can afford to live here — because our house prices are quite expensive. But it is a wonderful community, and that needs to be protected. That’s why I’m wanting to stand up and do what I can to help this community.
Aaron
How do we protect that? And this is the question I think about all the time, because all these issues keep coming up, like increasing population and the pressures that create.
Nicola Laboyrie
We can’t stop growth. Yes, it’s certainly changed — you and I would have seen these changes. When I was here in the late ’80s, things have certainly changed. We can’t stop people coming in, but what we can do is make sure that –when there is growth – that it’s well thought out, well planned, and benefits the community.
The two things I think are crucial is, We really need to get a second safe access so if State Highway 23 closes, people in their rice burners can still get out of here. That’s Waitetuna Valley Road– I know it switches into the Waipā District at the top where it turns into Fillery Road on the other side — but they’ve actually already done a lot of tar sealing up to there.
But we need to make that as a good alternative route, because otherwise it’s devastating for people. They end up having to travel another hour and a half just to get around.
Editor’s note: The speaker used the slang term “rice burners,” sometimes used to describe Japanese import cars.
Aaron
We know that now after Cyclone Gabrielle.
Nicola Laboyrie
And that is going to happen. Because you know — Rangi, who unfortunately died on that road. When it was closed, the traffic was diverted through Old Mountain Road, and that was a disaster.
Aaron
Was that the time the bus got stuck and kids had to walk?
Nicola Laboyrie
And my husband rang and said, what? Why didn’t you just divert people through Fillery Limeworks Loop Road? They said, oh, we didn’t think that road was open.
Aaron
That’s people outside the area trying to make decisions — and they’re just not equipped to do it.
Nicola Laboyrie
No – so we really need that.
But one of my other personal things is I’d really like to get some sort of swimming pool happening for our community — something warm. It’s good for children to learn, for oldies like me, we can do some exercises. It can be rehabilitation, you know, similar to that one that they have in Te Awamutu — it’s a real gem for their community. If you haven’t seen it, it’s worth visiting. It would be amazing if we could have something like that here in Raglan.
I know times are hard, but there are ways to do things— you can get partnerships with private funding and then move into a public pay-per-use system.
Aaron
You’re aware that Rangitahi are planning something there?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yes, that’s right. I have already been in discussions, and I know that there’s also been talk of Wainui reserve, but there’s some issues up there.
The Rangitahi option looks more obvious, and from the research I’ve been doing, it seems the more likely to happen in the near future.
Aaron
The community board has said it’s cool to have these facilities built, but they’re not committing to ongoing maintenance costs because they’re worried about ongoing cost to council. Do you agree with that?
Nicola Laboyrie
I think you always have to be mindful of the cost. But we also need to look at the programme. There may be a contribution — people might have to pay five bucks or whatever it is to use the facility.
The funding of it –we’d have to look at the proposal of it. It could be done in stages. For the Rangitahi option, for example, the first stage might not have a roof. You’re sort of seeing as you go. And sometimes you have to take the plunge, as long as it’s underwritten to a certain extent so the costs don’t overrun and impact ratepayers.
There are ways around it, but you certainly have to be careful with what you do.
Aaron
Okay, what about an issue where, as a councillor, you represent the community — and you’ve been really clear about your philosophy on various things — but you might still have to represent people and philosophies that you don’t necessarily agree with?
Nicola Laboyrie
Absolutely, I’ve done that all my life. You work and you always find common ground with anyone. Generally, people have got the same ends. People may have different philosophies, but the end result is often the same—you want the best for your community.
You want to see people happy and thriving and being able to live within the community, able to engage—not suffering with very high rates bills, or just not knowing how you’re going to survive.
Aaron
We should wrap up. Before we go, do you want to give us your pitch? Do you have something prepared.
Nicola Laboyrie
Basically, it’s – value, accountability, community — that’s what I’m standing for. I’m just wanting to use my skills to help get rates increases under control and to deliver value. And people need value.
Aaron
There’s something I have to bring up with everyone — where the rates are going in the next few years. A lot of that has been determined by central government putting the Three Waters upgrades back onto ratepayers. It’s legislated that we have to do that now.
Nicola Laboyrie
Well, you know, it’s down to individual councils. We’ve got our own systems, and Waikato District Council has partnered with neighbouring ones — Hamilton and others. I think a lot of ratepayers were in support of that process.
The thing is, some councils around the country are great with their rates, and then others, like Wellington, aren’t. So we just have to focus on our own district. Waikato has a system in place because this has to be done by September, which is just around the corner. And I think that they’ve found a system they’re happy with.
Once again, I’m going to drill down into the numbers — because that’s what I do. I’ll be looking for accountability and making sure it’s on track. Hopefully, we can come back to the ratepayers and say: look, it’s okay, we’re okay. This is how they’ve funded it, and it’s done into the future, and it looks manageable.
Aaron
We tried to find out what it will cost over the next nine years. And the wastewater component of rates—which you don’t have because you’re out in the country,
Nicola Laboyrie
We still have very significant rates.
Aaron
Yeah well this is, this is the single biggest line entry on the rates, and it’s about $1800 — but that’s going to double over the next nine years because all that has been put on the ratepayer. And I know the previous government was trying to do tricky things to avoid that–
Nicola Laboyrie
But before, it was being put into taxpayers. So one way or another, people are going to pay. So we just have to see and keep a very close eye on it.
Aaron
My point is, if everyone’s saying we’ve got to keep rates down, but government keeps giving councils extra responsibilities, then we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place aren’t we?
Nicola Laboyrie
Yeah — if it’s amortised out over a 20-year period, then it’s doable. But unfortunately, people have found this – is that councils have been creeping up the debt. There’s been concern from groups about the level of debt councils are carrying.
What have we received for that debt? Has it been funding infrastructure? If so, you can say, well, that’s okay. But this has to be looked into. This is another area like what is the debt, and how is it being managed?
Aaron
And now the government’s given Council’s permission to have higher debt levels.
Nicola Laboyrie
That’s all very well. But I’d like systems where ratepayers are more informed and have a bigger say.
Certainly members of the community are going to wake up, educating themselves. The more eyes, the better. We can be the “Eye of Sauron” looking at council and government. People are realising things have been going on behind their backs, and now it’s hitting their pockets. We need to be that Eye of Sauron and start making that noise.
Aaron
Okay, time to move on. Thank you for coming in this morning. We’ll see you at the Meet the Candidates on the 14th.
Nicola Laboyrie
I look forward to that. Thank you so much.